A few months ago, 2K was betting big on the 2009 holiday, with three key action games -- Borderlands, BioShock 2, and Mafia 2 -- scheduled to hit within a few months of each other. But then, as is quickly becoming trendy, the publisher decided to hold back the latter two until 2010, leaving Borderlands on its own this year. Following that news, I talked at length with company president Christoph Hartmann about everything from the reasons why they held those back, to his take on new ways of selling games, his interest in Microsoft and Sony's motion controllers, 2K Marin's future, and those hints about a Darkness sequel that came out at Comic-Con.
1UP: From my perspective, the trend for 2K in the past year or two -- with Borderlands, BioShock 2, Mafia 2, and even the hints that Ken Levine has been giving about his next game -- seems to be that you guys are going with fewer, bigger games. Is that how you see it?
Chistoph Hartmann: Well, totally. I mean fewer, bigger games -- that was always actually the strategy from the beginning, except we didn't go and announce it because what's the point if you don't have games to prove it? When we set up 2K four years ago, it was always the goal to do fewer games, better games. And that has to do with where the market is going and also to do with the way we're structured. We're like this petite gaming powerhouse who wants to be the Miramax of video gaming: great titles, commercially very successful, but also winning Oscars.
At the beginning, when we started off having 12 games a year between various licensed titles... [that's because] you just have build up some critical mass. You can't go out and build a label and not ship a single title for three years, which is the minimum it would take to build an original game. Let's compare it to a company I admire a lot, Ubisoft, which does amazing games... I remember the old days when they started off. It was like, "You want to do original games?" And look at them now. They do amazing titles and they're known almost better as a developer than a publisher.
1UP: Going forward, do you think we'll see even fewer games from 2K, or are you happy with the number per year you have now?
CH: I think we're happy with the amount we have now -- I don't think it's going to be less. In general, yes, the industry will ship fewer games. First of all, the costs went up, so you have to pick your battles. Secondly, any time there's a good game that's going to become the new standard, you've got to keep up and you've got to follow it and hit the same quality bar. And, in general, if you ask me... for my crystal ball, what I predict for the future is bigger, better games, where the games are more involved with their franchises long-term, with DLC, and also finding different business models where maybe you can buy something like on iTunes: you're not forced to buy the whole album -- for the people who just like two songs, you just buy two songs. And there are the people who buy the whole album, and there are the people who buy the whole album plus bonus tracks and then buy the limited edition. So I think the standard $50-60 pricing model -- put it in the box, put it out -- is going to change... I think that's why people will have the tendency to do fewer but bigger games.
1UP: One of the ideas I've heard batted around a lot -- but I haven't seen too much in execution -- is companies could slice off the multiplayer portion of their game and sell that as a downloadable product. Does that interest you? Could we see the full BioShock 2 retail package on the store shelves, but then just the multiplayer mode for download or something like that?
CH: I don't think so. I think that's the wrong way to go. I mean, yes it's possible to do it, but I think that's actually the wrong direction. I'd rather have it together and give people the full experience. I think what more likely will happen -- or at least what I believe with what we've done with BioShock -- is you start off, basically with a new IP, and introduce a new environment, a new world. BioShock was so super rich... I think if it would have had multiplayer back then it would have probably been overwhelming and we would have confused people rather than really pulled them into the story, which was one of the main features. The multiplayer now is really, I think, the right progression because people know the characters, so people are going to be ready for it; it's not going to be overwhelming.
But slicing up the way to divide single-player from multiplayer and make it two different SKUs -- I'm not sure that's the right way to go because then you limit yourself. In the multiplayer, you'll be stuck with all the hardcore guys and no one else will try it out. I feel like you have to use the single-player platform to suck people into playing more multiplayer.
1UP: In 2K's future -- maybe three years from now -- what do you think you'll be doing differently than you are now?
CH: I don't think we're going to do much differently; I think we're going to do everything better. And that means we're going to drive the quality, and we're going to drive the level of innovation and immersion. We try to find one unique thing for each title -- like in BioShock, we have the story, which really is driving you through the game, with Borderlands it's really the [fusion of] first-person shooter and RPG, and so on. And that's all about innovation. We want to have one new thing to try out and we're willing to take risks as you have seen
Believe me, neither one -- BioShock or Borderlands -- was a [safe bet]. People were really afraid of the risk and saying "Ooh, we don't know. That's not Call of Duty. How can we sign it up?" And we're like, "Yeah, you know, we have a vision. There are some issues, but we can work them out."
And I also want to have games where you feel immersed within the game. I want a game to be a whole emotional experience; I don't want it to be, "Hey, dude, it's cool what I can do -- I can blow his head up into like 15,000 pieces." You know, that's nice when you're in middle school, and that works for a while, but I also want to have the music, the whole atmosphere and [everything], so that when you go and listen to someone on the radio -- you're not talking about a movie or "when I kissed my first girl." It's more like "remember this girl I played?" Ah, "this girl I played..." [Laughs] I'm sorry -- [I mean] "this game I played." See, my mind is a bit wrong here.
But having a totally different relationship [than] you have with a movie -- I think that's very important. You truly saw that in BioShock, and you will see it also in Borderlands, and you will see it for sure in Mafia where we're really trying to give you this feeling. You're really caught in the '40s and '50s and feel that post-war environment as well. You know, that '50s environment -- it's something that hasn't been touched for a while.
1UP: So I'm curious, then -- you mentioned you like to see one big innovative thing in each game. What do you see as the one big innovative thing in BioShock 2 and Mafia 2?
CH: BioShock 2, it's a little bit early, because we're going to do another big round or two rounds of press before we put it out, and [public relations representative] Charlie who's sitting here is going to have a heart attack in front of me if I say anything early. But, for sure it will live up to the expectations. It will have the quality everyone expects from the game. And what will be the big thing -- it's the right question you ask, but it's just the wrong time because we're working on the demo and obviously you'll get invited to have a look at it.
On Mafia, same thing; it's a little bit early to answer, but you can see already where we're going. We want you to dive in, to be really immersed in a world which is set in the '40s and '50s, and have a very super realistic city you can experience, but also have heavy shooter elements where the shooting experience is very, very great for an open world game, and so on. But I won't really go into the details. It's visually stunning; I'm sure you have seen how good it looks. But again, it's next year, so... I don't want to hint at something and run into risky territory.
1UP: So six months from now, we'll be able to look back, and you'll be able to point to one thing in each one of those games. With that, you're pretty confident?
CH: Call me up in six months; I promise you... and if you tell me Christoph Hartmann is full of ****, I'm totally fine with that as well.
1UP: From my perspective, the trend for 2K in the past year or two -- with Borderlands, BioShock 2, Mafia 2, and even the hints that Ken Levine has been giving about his next game -- seems to be that you guys are going with fewer, bigger games. Is that how you see it?
Chistoph Hartmann: Well, totally. I mean fewer, bigger games -- that was always actually the strategy from the beginning, except we didn't go and announce it because what's the point if you don't have games to prove it? When we set up 2K four years ago, it was always the goal to do fewer games, better games. And that has to do with where the market is going and also to do with the way we're structured. We're like this petite gaming powerhouse who wants to be the Miramax of video gaming: great titles, commercially very successful, but also winning Oscars.
At the beginning, when we started off having 12 games a year between various licensed titles... [that's because] you just have build up some critical mass. You can't go out and build a label and not ship a single title for three years, which is the minimum it would take to build an original game. Let's compare it to a company I admire a lot, Ubisoft, which does amazing games... I remember the old days when they started off. It was like, "You want to do original games?" And look at them now. They do amazing titles and they're known almost better as a developer than a publisher.
1UP: Going forward, do you think we'll see even fewer games from 2K, or are you happy with the number per year you have now?
CH: I think we're happy with the amount we have now -- I don't think it's going to be less. In general, yes, the industry will ship fewer games. First of all, the costs went up, so you have to pick your battles. Secondly, any time there's a good game that's going to become the new standard, you've got to keep up and you've got to follow it and hit the same quality bar. And, in general, if you ask me... for my crystal ball, what I predict for the future is bigger, better games, where the games are more involved with their franchises long-term, with DLC, and also finding different business models where maybe you can buy something like on iTunes: you're not forced to buy the whole album -- for the people who just like two songs, you just buy two songs. And there are the people who buy the whole album, and there are the people who buy the whole album plus bonus tracks and then buy the limited edition. So I think the standard $50-60 pricing model -- put it in the box, put it out -- is going to change... I think that's why people will have the tendency to do fewer but bigger games.
1UP: One of the ideas I've heard batted around a lot -- but I haven't seen too much in execution -- is companies could slice off the multiplayer portion of their game and sell that as a downloadable product. Does that interest you? Could we see the full BioShock 2 retail package on the store shelves, but then just the multiplayer mode for download or something like that?
CH: I don't think so. I think that's the wrong way to go. I mean, yes it's possible to do it, but I think that's actually the wrong direction. I'd rather have it together and give people the full experience. I think what more likely will happen -- or at least what I believe with what we've done with BioShock -- is you start off, basically with a new IP, and introduce a new environment, a new world. BioShock was so super rich... I think if it would have had multiplayer back then it would have probably been overwhelming and we would have confused people rather than really pulled them into the story, which was one of the main features. The multiplayer now is really, I think, the right progression because people know the characters, so people are going to be ready for it; it's not going to be overwhelming.
But slicing up the way to divide single-player from multiplayer and make it two different SKUs -- I'm not sure that's the right way to go because then you limit yourself. In the multiplayer, you'll be stuck with all the hardcore guys and no one else will try it out. I feel like you have to use the single-player platform to suck people into playing more multiplayer.
1UP: In 2K's future -- maybe three years from now -- what do you think you'll be doing differently than you are now?
CH: I don't think we're going to do much differently; I think we're going to do everything better. And that means we're going to drive the quality, and we're going to drive the level of innovation and immersion. We try to find one unique thing for each title -- like in BioShock, we have the story, which really is driving you through the game, with Borderlands it's really the [fusion of] first-person shooter and RPG, and so on. And that's all about innovation. We want to have one new thing to try out and we're willing to take risks as you have seen
Believe me, neither one -- BioShock or Borderlands -- was a [safe bet]. People were really afraid of the risk and saying "Ooh, we don't know. That's not Call of Duty. How can we sign it up?" And we're like, "Yeah, you know, we have a vision. There are some issues, but we can work them out."
And I also want to have games where you feel immersed within the game. I want a game to be a whole emotional experience; I don't want it to be, "Hey, dude, it's cool what I can do -- I can blow his head up into like 15,000 pieces." You know, that's nice when you're in middle school, and that works for a while, but I also want to have the music, the whole atmosphere and [everything], so that when you go and listen to someone on the radio -- you're not talking about a movie or "when I kissed my first girl." It's more like "remember this girl I played?" Ah, "this girl I played..." [Laughs] I'm sorry -- [I mean] "this game I played." See, my mind is a bit wrong here.
But having a totally different relationship [than] you have with a movie -- I think that's very important. You truly saw that in BioShock, and you will see it also in Borderlands, and you will see it for sure in Mafia where we're really trying to give you this feeling. You're really caught in the '40s and '50s and feel that post-war environment as well. You know, that '50s environment -- it's something that hasn't been touched for a while.
1UP: So I'm curious, then -- you mentioned you like to see one big innovative thing in each game. What do you see as the one big innovative thing in BioShock 2 and Mafia 2?
CH: BioShock 2, it's a little bit early, because we're going to do another big round or two rounds of press before we put it out, and [public relations representative] Charlie who's sitting here is going to have a heart attack in front of me if I say anything early. But, for sure it will live up to the expectations. It will have the quality everyone expects from the game. And what will be the big thing -- it's the right question you ask, but it's just the wrong time because we're working on the demo and obviously you'll get invited to have a look at it.
On Mafia, same thing; it's a little bit early to answer, but you can see already where we're going. We want you to dive in, to be really immersed in a world which is set in the '40s and '50s, and have a very super realistic city you can experience, but also have heavy shooter elements where the shooting experience is very, very great for an open world game, and so on. But I won't really go into the details. It's visually stunning; I'm sure you have seen how good it looks. But again, it's next year, so... I don't want to hint at something and run into risky territory.
1UP: So six months from now, we'll be able to look back, and you'll be able to point to one thing in each one of those games. With that, you're pretty confident?
CH: Call me up in six months; I promise you... and if you tell me Christoph Hartmann is full of ****, I'm totally fine with that as well.
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