George R.R. Martin / A Game of Thrones Discussion Master Thread

[Che]

USE THIS THREAD TO DISCUSS ALL PAST, CURRENT & FUTURE NOVELS OF GEORGE R.R. MARTIN!

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OK. Here are the rules.

1. ALWAYS USE A SPOILER
2. Before the spoiler reference which book you are discussing. If you are having a broad discussion, label it Books 1-5.



If I feel squirelly I may try to find some icons for use instead of book Numbers. I will ammend rules as it seems fit.

 

[Softwing]

Let me inaugurate this thread!

Book 3

Spoiler

Twyin Lannister does not, in fact, s*** gold.

 

[Che]

I will follow in turn.

Book 4 or 5(Can't remember)

Spoiler

Tyrion's sweet sister Cersei is in fact "a ***** in heat"

 

[Che]

I will take what is mine with Dwarf Pennies & Thief Moons.

 

[Softwing]

I will take what is mine with Dwarf Pennies & Thief Moons.

This one's gone completely over my head...Something to do with

Book 5

Spoiler

Tyrion and Penny?

on speculative (and less silly note)

Books 1-5, I guess

Spoiler

I really want to see Asshai before the books end, but it seems less and less likely we'll get there. Casterly Rock too, but I think we will get to visit there very soon.

 

[Che]

This one's gone completely over my head

Book 3-5

Spoiler

A bit of a play on words using the Targaryen slogan.When Tyrion is master of coin he taxes the brothels with a penny for every lay. People of King's Landing call it the Dwarf Penny. Ygritte tells Jon the best time to steal a woman is during a full moon. Wildlings call it a thief moon. I'm most excited for Oberyn Martell. I hope they cast him well on the show. He is the only character that made me chuckle harder than Tyrion. I honestly could have read an entire book of conversations between Tyrion and the Red Viper.

 

[Softwing]

Book 3-5

Spoiler

A bit of a play on words using the Targaryen slogan.When Tyrion is master of coin he taxes the brothels with a penny for every lay. People of King's Landing call it the Dwarf Penny. Ygritte tells Jon the best time to steal a woman is during a full moon. Wildlings call it a thief moon. I'm most excited for Oberyn Martell. I hope they cast him well on the show. He is the only character that made me chuckle harder than Tyrion. I honestly could have read an entire book of conversations between Tyrion and the Red Viper.

Books 3-5

Spoiler

Thanks Che, I do actually remember both of those now with a bit of memory prodding.

As I brought up Tyrion and Penny, how do you think the show will handle the dwarfs jousting on pigs act? Seems a little risqué even for GoT.

I can agree with you on the Red Viper, such a great character! Shame he died so soon. I have to admit, one of my biggest fears for the show is that the Dornish are going to get shortchanged in the show. I really don't think the budget is going to stretch enough for new sets, a new shooting location, and a new production team to shoot in that location, and that Dorne as a place will get cut.
To a much lesser extent, I have an (unfounded) fear that Oberyn will be axed in favour of Bronn acting as Tyrion's champion. Outside of reports on his misadventures, has Bronn actually appeared since SoS?
If the Viper (and the other Dornish) are cast, I hope they give them a strong ethnic identity. I've always thought from book descriptions that they run the gamut from Mediterranean all the way to Middle-Eastern. They've done well with Westeros so far, but I think their attempts with the people of Essos has been rather slapdash, so it could go either way.

completely unrelated: I'm hoping, hoping, hoping, that the faith do end up putting forward Lancel as their champion. Him fighting Franken-Gregor? Funniest duel ever!

 

[mllNY]

TV Series

Spoiler

Where are my Dragons

Spoiler

Oh, here they are

 

[Che]

TV Series/Book 5 Varys

Spoiler

Another Varys question. If he hates magic so much, why is he helping Dany? She used magic to birth the dragons.

 

[mllNY]

Spoiler

Davos hates millesandre but is still helping Stannis, Its a matter of which side are you on

 

[Softwing]

TV Series/Book 5 Varys

Spoiler

Another Varys question. If he hates magic so much, why is he helping Dany? She used magic to birth the dragons.

Books 1-5

Spoiler

It's a very good question, and I'm not sure it can be answered by anyone without a great deal of speculation. Part of this ties into my belief that Aegon is a fake, so feel free to disagree!

I don't think Dany was ever the plan, at least not for Varys. Originally the Varys/Illyrio plot was Viserys and the Dothraki using Dany as a marital token, which was fine until Viserys ballsed it all up. I can't believe that Illyrio couldn't see this coming, having spent so much time with The Mad King version 2, and that he knew more about the dragon eggs than he let on; he perhaps even anticipated that they could hatch under the right circumstances. His current (Book 5---) interest in Dany is purely her dragons. It's why he wants her to come back to Pentos.

As far as the Varys/Illyrio plot is concerned, after Viserys gets his gold hat, they're ruined, plans in tatters. I'm not sure what they do immediately afterwards, but I don't think they hear of Dany until she turns Slaver's Bay into a bonfire. Perhaps they consider using her as their wildcard for a while, but that's pointless when she decides to rule Meereen. After all, they need the realm to be in chaos for the people to welcome a Targ liberator, and the War of the Five Kings is, if anything, wrapping up. BTW, I think the whole thing is a bit of an anathema to begin with, as a Targ regime and dragons do go hand in hand. (not dismissing your point, which is great, moreso Varys' attitude to magic).

Tyrion encounters Aegon very early into Dany's reign, so it's difficult to tell if Aegon became Plan A before or after she decided to stay in Meereen. My gut, and it's only a gut feeling, says before. But whatever, everything has now been timed for Aegon to sack King's Landing in TWoW: Dorne up in arms, Kings Landing a mess and the North at war with itself. I suspect that Varys has been pulling the strings of the Faith, and that Cersei will be found innocent while Margaery is found guilty and killed. There will be slaughter in the streets; Aegon will probably stroll up to the Red Keep. Getting the dragons is important though, they're game changers; the nuclear weapons of their world. That's why they either need Dany on side, or out of the picture.

Why do I think Aegon is a fake? There are a few reasons. First, he has a better claim (through inheritance) than either Viserys or Dany, so it strikes me as odd that he's used as the backup plan. Second, you have the very convenient fact that Varys managed to find a another silver haired babe of a similar age to swap with Aegon at the sacking. I just find that hard to swallow. My biggest reason is the passage in the House of the Undying. One of the prophecies is about the Mummer's Dragon, which I believe refers to Aegon.

There's really a lot about Varys and his plans that we don't know yet. Do we even know who Varys was playing against at the start of the story? It's tempting to say Littlefinger, but I think he's been a recent opponent. Perhaps the most interesting thing you can ask about Varys is this: if Varys has simply wanted a stable Targ regime all this time, then why did he tell King Aerys that Rhaegar was planning to have him peacefully deposed?

 

[Che]

 

[Softwing]

So, if the basis for Stannis' claim is basically that Joffrey is blonde...

Spoiler

 

[Che]

Book & Episode Spoilers

Spoiler

I'm really enjoying all these changes. Ygritte never said anything remotely like what she did about knowing. That really fleshed out the relationship. O'Rell(Jowl/Varomir 6 skins) is obviously a bunch of wildlings rolled in one. The wall scene was a classic. I think the Varys/Baelish storyline is to help viewers understand the larger scope of the Sansa plot line. If you remember, it was sir Dundas the drunkard helping Sansa the whole time in the book. I think this is all a diversion for the viewer. Sansa sees her last chance

Spoiler

until Joff's wedding

to escape King's Landing. She feels she has made a huge mistake. Joffrey is a monster. That was his first showing of it this season. I think Ghost has been absent because in the books he is with Jon and the Wildling and even saves him when Rattleshirt goes to kill him. It makes sense because of the speed of the season. We won't see Ghost until Jon is

Spoiler

back at castle black

I like how sir Loras is enlisted in the King's guard on the show. That was a great scene between her and Tywinn. "He's a sword swallower" Patience on Dany. She has a long way to go before she reaches Mareen. Dario, Jorah's banishment, Baristan saves her again. I wonder if Quaith is going to play a part again this year or next??

 

[Softwing]

Awww guys, who wants to be my tag team partner?

book spoiler

Spoiler

I'm looking for the paragraph and there is so much to skim through it's hard. I might have to reread all the Theons. I swear there is 1 line confirming it. Very sneaky too, like even before he was cut. Or the wedding night scene with Jane. BTW, it's Ramsay Snow.

Book spoiler

Spoiler

You're right, It's pretty much spelled out during Ramsay's wedding night, and there are enough subtler nods throughout the book to make it pretty clear: "I'm no longer a man," "I have...wounds." etc. Of course, castrated, He'd have almost no bladder control, which would give him the odour associated with Reek. Incidentally, this is also the likely reason why Varys wears so much perfume, the leaky devil!

Thanks for the congrats.

pretty much on show spoilers so your OK to read non book readers

Spoiler

Yup the direwolves missing is just screaming at me at this point

Who knows what will hapen at Edmure's wedding. I think she may be safe since the boooks have possible alllusion to Jeyne being pregnant, but we shall see.

Jamie is grat though for me it is Dany. I was hoping Jamie was going to shove him in the bear pit. But I'm sure there will be some retribution.

Oh and I forgot to discuss Joffrey/Tywin scene. He looks like he wants to smack his grandson upside his head. Sad to hear about the actor maybe cause he had a minor role they could replace him.

Yes the dragons are spot on, we'll see where that story arc goes

As to your fears about me and Che teaming up on you. I'm afraid it will be you and him teaming up on me if anything. We are discussing if Theon was or was not cut and there are discussions about that on other forums with points in both directions. Never have I ever discussed another mans penis as much before

Book stuff:

Spoiler

And I agree with you abour Roose. On top of the fact that they haven't even technically revealed he is roose's bastard. Doesn't he keep a pack of dogs with him named after women that the dogs hunted and *****

Book McNuggets 1-5

Spoiler

I think we need to start a betting pool on Talisa's fate. My gut still says death, but I'd love to be wrong; death is so very sad. In the show, there's going to be no Smalljon/Manderly/Mormont casualties at the wedding, and I think they're really going to want the wedding to be a huge gutpunch of a slaughter. I'm not 100% convinced that even the Blackfish is safe.

His name is Wilko Johnson, and he's still alive, but his prognosis was about 10 months as of January 2013. I think the showrunners said that they didn't want to recast out of respect, but that they'd give Ilyn Payne's important parts in the story to other characters instead. For a character that never spoke, Wilko left a lasting impression, it's sad to see him go.

My one nitpick with the dragons is that I'd like to hear them named in the show. It's been 18 episodes since they hatched and no names yet.

Spot on about Ramsay's dogs: his b****es. Such a nice boy...

 

[mllNY]

Spoiler

Let's see how it goes, nothing else too it. At least if they go the extreme route for the wedding it will get my mind off the Theon scene. 4 days later and I am still disturbed

 

[Softwing]

Spoiler

Let's see how it goes, nothing else too it. At least if they go the extreme route for the wedding it will get my mind off the Theon scene. 4 days later and I am still disturbed

Spoiler

Getting tingles down below?

 

[Che]

Book 1-5 + TV cross talk

Spoiler

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Dario command the storm crows in the books? So, Dario will play the dual role of brown ben plum? Tyrion joins the second sons during the siege of Mareen. I am baffled by this move. So, maybe Dario is the harpee in the books??? Maybe he has betrayed her in the books and we don't know yet. I am going to miss Ben Plum's legendary manhood story he tells Dany. That was funny stuff. Now I am getting nervous for Red Viper. I want to know what you guys think.

 

[mllNY]

Spoiler

theres an extra hand in that picture, can you spot it

I truly don't remember so I won't comment

 

[Softwing]

Book 1-5 + TV cross talk

Spoiler

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Dario command the storm crows in the books? So, Dario will play the dual role of brown ben plum? Tyrion joins the second sons during the siege of Mareen. I am baffled by this move. So, maybe Dario is the harpee in the books??? Maybe he has betrayed her in the books and we don't know yet. I am going to miss Ben Plum's legendary manhood story he tells Dany. That was funny stuff. Now I am getting nervous for Red Viper. I want to know what you guys think.

Books 1-5 + TV

Spoiler

Daario was one of the commanders of the Storm Crows in the books, yeah. My only guess is that it's a simplification for TV, and they went with the Second Sons because we already have 'Crows' (Night's Watch) and 'Stone Crows' (hill tribesmen). Brown Ben was great, and maybe he'll appear in a future season, but he is missed.

I personally think the Green Grace is the Harpy, although your suggestion of Daario has got me wondering if it's actually a man, with our own preconceptions of 'harpy' misdirecting us. The mythological beast is of course traditionally female, but this doesn't necessarily have to be the case here. So thanks Che, you've given me something to chew on now. DwD is due for a re-read anyway!

I've been worried about the Red Viper for some time, on and off. Specifically, that Bronn will replace him as Tyrion's champion, which would pretty much be a character assassination. I think it depends on whether they keep the Dorne plot in the show or not, as setting up the Martell/Lannister animosity is the only reason the Viper has to be around. I hope he is in though, he's a fantastic character who is very prominent for his short appearance. He'd be the perfect role to give to a 'name' actor: a fairly major role that would be a one season deal.