Kinect - Megathread - Confirmed Cost $150

Apr 2, 2009
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http://www.joystiq.com/2009/06/01/project-natal-video-features-smack-talking-scruffy-teenagers/

see demo there if you don't know what natal is.

but what do you guys think, is this something you're looking forward to? i know when i saw the demo back at E3, i said to myself...awesome, a good reason to not sell my 360 :cool:
 
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Having had a few opportunities to play around with Microsoft's Kinect camera peripheral over the past year (then it was still called Project Natal), we were eager to try the seemingly finalized version displayed at E3 (see the video below for highlights from our hands-on session).
The first thing we noticed was that the Kinect hardware was visually very close (as far as we could tell) to the demo devices seen as far back as E3 2009, despite rumblings from Microsoft reps during the year that the design was subject to change. It's a physically large device, and not as easy to blend into a home entertainment center as a thin Wii sensor bar.

In our previous hands-on experiences with the then-Natal, we thought it recognized human forms well, but there was typically a slight delay in translating movement to the screen, and occasionally, the entire skeletal structure of your on-screen avatar could get twisted around. The current Kinect camera/software package at once seems more responsive and stable, although it still felt a hair away from direct one-to-one movement.

We were particularly interested in trying out the Xbox Live media functions of the Kinect system. While several parts of Xbox Live will purportedly work with the device, the only one we could demo in person was the Zune library. There, we were able to start and stop a video file, as well as jog forward and back, just by using hand gestures. The experience had a learning curve, but a small one, we managed not to trigger many false positive inputs.

To their credit, the Microsoft reps let us take the voice control part of the system for a spin -- easily the part of the Kinect ecosystem that could most easily fail in a live-fire demo session. The basic voice commands, starting with the word "Xbox," then adding an instruction such as "pause," or "play," worked perfectly, even in a noisy group environment, and despite the fact that we had not calibrated the system with our voice. We got to see the ESPN app in action briefly, but couldn't operate it ourselves. Other apps, from FaceBook to Last.fm are still under development, and only appeared as placeholder icons.

Possibly the most buzz-worthy Kinect game was Kinanimals, a collection of virtual pets. We also got to take one of these jungle cats for a test drive, and ran through an obstacle course, using our body language to control the animal. Again, the system worked very well, even in a dimly lit, noisy room. But, the only parts of the Kinanimals game we've seen so far has been some basic interaction with the animals and this obstacle course. Unless there's a lot more to it, it feels more like a tech demo than something we'd play on a regular basis.

It's been exactly one year since we first saw the Xbox Natal/Kinect hardware. In that time, we've gone from simple block-busting demos (although that breakout-style game is still around, packed into one of the Kinect titles) to more advanced games, as well as adding the first steps of remote-control-free home theater control. Our overall impression based on this brief hands-on encounter is that the hardware itself seems ready for prime time, and it's up to the software to follow.
 
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Kinect has a traditional RGB camera in it, as found in a multitude of webcams and mobile phones, and it's capable of a standard 640x480 resolution, operating at 30 frames per second. Alongside this are the depth sensors. These bathe the area in an infra-red wash, colour-coding the scene based on how far away the objects are. This is the key to Kinect's unique capabilities. Not only does it allow games to know where everyone and everything is in 3D space, but it also means that even without the RGB data it can operate just fine in any lighting conditions - even pitch black.

The depth map is the most crucial weapon in Kinect's arsenal, and it can also be integrated with the traditional RGB webcam image in a process known as registration, although the integration of the two planes together does incur a small additional CPU load. However, even without registration, we can see that developers are making use of it in the launch titles, visualising it directly into the game.

Perhaps the most dramatic example of this is in Ubisoft's Your Shape: Fitness Evolved. Here your on-screen persona is effectively a post-processed rendition of the depth map, with the main figure (i.e. the player) cut out, with additional particles effects overlaid to create a much smoother look.

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However, it is important to point out that there are a huge range of factors that conspire to make Kinect react differently depending on the game being played. Rare's Nick Burton, who we spoke to at the hands-on event, was very specific in pointing out that his game operates with a latency of 150ms, not including display lag.

We've seen in previous Digital Foundry tests on console game latency that 30FPS titles typically operate at 100ms in a best-case scenario. While Kinect Sports can run at 60FPS (certainly the bowling does), the scan rate of Kinect is limited to 30FPS, so at the very best we should never assume to see any kind of response better than the 100ms "standard".

Over and above that there are other considerations. For example, in terms of the lag, there's going to be a fixed "cost" in acquiring the depth map and the RGB info, and there's also going to be an additional latency caused by the transfer of USB - you'd think that these are the baseline fixed costs of operating the system. Then there's the processing of the acquired data, and the different configurations from which developers can access it

So, what are these elements exactly and how would they impact performance? An RGB image with the depth map aligned (or registered, as Microsoft calls it) along with voice command analysis is clearly going to require more CPU work than processing skeletal data and some gesture-recognition alone.

This presumably explains why Burton was so keen to point out that his game operates at that specific level of latency. Even in our own latency tests, we can see an enormous spread of controller lag across many titles running at the same frame-rates and we can imagine the situation being a lot worse with Kinect, definitely in the short term.

As pointed out in our initial hands-on yesterday and indeed way back in the original gamescom Digital Foundry vs. Project Natal feature, the lag factor definitely feels like more of an issue simply because we are used to our actions being transmitted to the console at the highest, fastest level.

Our hands and fingers are capable of extremely fast reaction times, so while jettisoning the joypad may appear to make the games more accessible, the human body as a whole cannot react anywhere near as fast as our brain-to-finger reflexes. This is why Kinect games that, on paper, have the same overall latency as some more traditional joypad games, actually feel a lot less responsive.

Factoring in the inherent latency of human movement is perhaps one of the greatest challenges facing Kinect developers, and what's more this is this is likely to be more or less of an issue depending on the person playing.

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But just how much of a burden on the CPU are the NUI libraries, as they're referred to by Microsoft? Bearing in mind the fact that we have excellent motion-tracking on a consumer-level device, and that the processing chip in the original Natal design was removed in favour of a software layer implemented on the 360 itself, you could be forgiven for thinking that game performance would be impacted by the additional load.

Well, the initial rumours about the use of one core of the Xenon CPU are clearly way off beam based on the games we've seen. Kudo Tsunoda's Kinect Adventures is running some very attractive visuals using the Unreal Engine, which probably wouldn't take kindly to being run on an effectively crippled CPU.

However, the best example we've seen yet is the demo of the Kinect rendition of Forza Motorsport at the Microsoft media briefing. There's little doubt that the action on-stage wasn't scripted (as per the Project Natal Experience the night before) and here we are seeing the same silky smooth 720p60 that we've come to expect from Turn 10's excellent racing titles.

Probably the best source we have on the actual additional load that Kinect incurs on the Xenon CPU comes from the Wired magazine article on the then-Project Natal run a few months back. In that story, Xbox's technological frontiersman Alex Kipman pegged the load at 10 to 15 per cent depending on the tasks being asked of the various libraries.

Bearing in mind what Kinect is achieving, that's a pretty impressive achievement. This does not fully contradict the "one core" rumours that were previously circulating - it may simply be the case that Kinect only uses a certain percentage of that single processing unit, most likely spread across the two available hardware threads.

So while today's Forza demo suggests that Kinect can be backwardly imported into existing games, scheduling those significant NUI libraries into an existing pipeline could be problematic, especially in a system as sensitive to lag as this one.

Check out the lag in this video. http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/kinect-latency-tests?size=med
 
Microsoft Kinect gets official, Video Chat announced

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You knew it was coming, right? Hot on the heels of getting leaked a wee bit early Microsoft has made official the rebadging of a device desperately seeking a new name: "Project Natal" is no more, replaced by Microsoft Kinect. At a circus- and celebrity-filled affair, MS wrapped everyone in high-tech panchos (pictured after the break courtesy of Joystiq) and then took the wraps off of the new title. Quite a few game demos were shown, ranging from Star Wars to tiger petting, the Kinect interface to the Dashboard was shown (said by some to be Minority Report-like), and a video chat app called, wait for it, Video Chat. Through here you can naturally talk to friends (up to four total people at once was "shown"), and also share photos.

Sadly, no hands-on time was given nor did MS reveal the two crucial bits of information we're waiting for: price and date. Naturally a holiday release is expected, to give the Xbox 360 a nice sales boost, but we're hearing price rumors as high as $150. These choice bits of intel will surely be unveiled at Microsoft's event tomorrow -- if someone doesn't beat 'em to it. The hardware is still looking exactly like the early picture above, shattering hopes of a slimmer design to match new Slim Xbox 360.

Update: We've got official photos now, though solid textual info is still scarce. Stand by!

Update 2: So we're out of the wild, cult-like experience that was Microsoft's Kinect unveiling. Microsoft still has a lot of details to reveal, but there are a few things we gleaned from watching the demos:
Almost everything was one person at a time, particularly in the Kinect Sports games. Even a game like beach volleyball or soccer was boiled down to individual "moments" of interaction that get strung together into some sort of competition. Even the running in place games were one at a time, though the river rafting and mining cart games (both with a similar mechanic of jumping and ducking through an obstacle course while picking up tokens) could be played with two people at a time. You can at least play games like volleyball simultaneously with someone else over Xbox Live.
An interesting mechanic we saw was a second player "jumping in" to a game. In the mining cart scenario, when the second player jumped in it immediately went split screen, while in soccer different players took turns by just jumping into position. Sure, some of this stuff was edited for our benefit, but it seems Microsoft is working to make the introduction of a second player or the switching between players something less button-heavy.
The Star Wars game was pretty badass-looking -- you play a Jedi, rushing down stormtroopers and deflecting laser bolts left and right, wielding a few Force powers, and confronting a certain deep-voiced Sith Lord for a one-on-one duel. Based on the gestures and action we saw, though, it was a pretty heavily scripted experience. Still, there's no scripting a two-handed light saber grip, and that particular action looked like everything we've ever wanted in a Star Wars game.
The yoga game is actually a pretty smart use of the infrared and joint detection software we espied previously. Positions were "checked" by points on the joint -- making it certainly harder to fake the moves on Wii Fit -- and it seemed to have a tai chi element to it. Your avatar glowed a more intense red based on your three-dimensional approximation -- bright red for hands stretched forward, for example.
Next up: Kinectimals, a baby tiger pet simulator. You can scratch its ears, snuggle, and teach the little guy to jump and play dead. Adorable? Dangerously so. No one can tell us the developer, but based on the lighting effects, art style, and similarities to the previously-shown Milo, we'd wager a guess that it was Lionhead Studios.
The Kinect menu interface is about as simple as could be. You wave your hand to control a glowing cursor of sorts, and you push forward to "click" on the element you want. Of course, there's also a very simplified version of the Dashboard to go along with this control mechanism, so it's unclear if you'll be able to do everything via subtle hand waves, but the Twitter, Facebook, Zune and Netflix icons were clearly present.
The MTV Games-developed Dance Central has some on staff divided -- only Ross will actually admit to being interested in playing it. A series of dance moves are presented, including elbow jabs, swinging leg, guitar, "rocking out" (with your hand in the air). The art style is akin to Rock Band / Guitar Hero, and to be fair, this is probably one of those games that can't be done as well on any other console.

Update 3: Video of family gameplay and media playback control added after the break. Come on, what else are you going to do until its November retail launch?

-engadget
 
Video Kinect: video chat and stream sharing over Xbox Live and Live Messenger

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Xbox Live and Windows Live Messenger are about to meet up in a very personal way -- Microsoft has just announced a new video chat service called Video Kinect, which serves as a logical extension of its brand new Kinect voice- and motion-sensing control system. But it's not just video calling, no sir, you'll be able to watch movies, news, sports, and the like together with whoever you're chatting with. Additionally, thanks to a motorized base and a new skeleton-tracking feature, the Kinect unit will also follow users as they move around the room. Yup, not creepy at all.

-Engadget
 
Kinect priced at GameStop: $149, $399 for Elite bundle

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Microsoft didn't say a peep about Kinect pricing at its E3 keynote, but GameStop isn't being shy: Kinect is now listed on the retailer's website for $149.99. The page is dead if you try to click through from search results, so it looks like the listing may have gone up in error -- we'll see if this is the real price come November 4. We'll let you know if we can confirm anything.

Update: And the hits keep coming: GameStop is now listing a $299 "Arcade Bundle" which obviously pairs a $149 Kinect with the now-$149 Arcade, as well as a $399 Elite bundle that seems to pair a $149 Kinect with the older Elite, which is now $249. So where's the bundle with the hot new 250GB Stealthbox? And are these the real prices? We'll have to wait and see.

Update 2: And now Walmart's confirming the November 4th ship date and $149 MSRP. C'mon Microsoft, what are you waiting for?

-engadget
 
Kinect guide: a preview and explanation of Microsoft's new full body motion sensor

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We've become so familiar with the "Project Natal" codename over the years that our tongues are still having a little trouble wrapping around Microsoft's new Kinect moniker for it. Still, what's in a name? Microsoft has finally shown us what matters with real games, real gameplay, and real hardware, and after spending some time with it using our very own human flesh to control the on-screen action, we feel like we're starting to get a pretty good grip on the experience. Follow after the break as we break down the complicated workings and emergent gameplay of Kinect.

Hardware

Kinect combines a few detection mechanisms to build up a rather accurate and comprehensive amount of 3D data on what's going on inside a room. There's a color camera for taking pictures, recognizing faces, and so forth, but the real magic happens with the monochrome CMOS camera sensor that's paired up with an IR blaster. Microsoft calls this its "depth sensor," and the light and shadow of that image (lit by the human eye-invisible IR spectrum) is analyzed to build a 3D map of the objects within Kinect's field of view. Finally, there's a multi-array microphone setup to detect location of voices and to cancel out ambient noise, allowing for video chats without a headset.

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All of this sits atop a motorized tilting base of sorts. Microsoft hasn't gone into detail about the range of the motor, but when used in conjunction with skeletal and facial tracking, Kinect can pan and tilt to keep its sensors trained on you as you move around the room. One down side of the motorized base, however, along with the rest of the fairly complicated electronics, is that the Kinect hardware isn't tiny: it's about a hand's width tall, about as deep, and around a foot wide. When you think about it, the entire Wii occupies less cubic real estate. It shouldn't have much trouble squeezing in up in front of your LCD TV, but good luck trying to balance it on top, and we have no idea how folks who hang their TVs on the wall should approach this situation.

That motorized base also draws a good bit of power, so unless you have one of the brand new Xbox 360s, which include a special powered USB port, you'll have to plug Kinect into your wall as well as your 360.

One thing that Microsoft has actually left out of Kinect is a dedicated processor. The original plan was purportedly to have the Kinect pull its own load, allowing the Xbox 360's processors to run free in rendering games. In the interest of cost, however, the processor got cut and now the Xbox is taking a 10-15% processor hit. Reports are conflicting as to whether or not that's going to impact the sort of games that make it onto the system, but either way it pretty much rules out retrofitting older games for a new Kinect control scheme.

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We've heard divergent reports on lag, but 100-150ms seems to be around where Kinect is playing (Sony claims a 22ms lag for PlayStation Move). During that time the system is tracking and processing 48 skeleton points in 3D space, watching up to two people, and repeating the process at around 30 fps.

Xbox Dashboard

While the main point of all this wild hardware and millions of dollars of Microsoft R&D is to play games, there's also a whole new Xbox UI that's enabled by Kinect. You wave your hand to dive into it from the regular Dashboard, and you're presented with a simple grid interface. There your hand is virtualized by a white dot floating around on the screen, which acts as a simple, accurate cursor. Hovering over icons pops out a bit of visual flare, and if you hover for a few seconds a timer fills up and that item is opened.

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You can scroll between screenfuls of icons by hovering over to one of the sides and "sliding" a little widget over there. Microsoft isn't sure if it'll let you rearrange the tiles like you can on the Wii (or on any modern smartphone), but it would certainly be nice if we could.

One thing we haven't really seen much detail on is how the apps inside of the new Kinect Dashboard will work. The video and audio playback controls are fun, with the same side-swiping gesture to skip back and forth between tracks, and a scrubbing control with one of those Netflix-style thumbnail previews as you gently push the playhead back and forth with your hand. But as far as updating and browsing Facebook, or sorting through songs and playlists, we're still in the dark.

These gesture-based controls are nice and all, but our favorite part is actually the voice controls offered. You just say "Xbox" and then follow that up with your selection or playback command. It's simple, intuitive, and works even in a mildly noisy room.

-engadget
 
Microsoft says to expect non-casual, 'hybrid' Kinect games 'over the coming 18 months'

via engadget

Excited by some of the possibilities Kinect offers for non-casual games? Then it looks like you might have a bit of a wait in store. Speaking with GamesIndustry.biz, Microsoft's VP for Interactive Entertainment in Europe, Chris Lewis, went to some length to point out that Microsoft isn't ignoring core gamers, but would only go as far as to say that non-casual, "hybrid" games that use both Kinect and a standard controller would likely become available "over the coming 18 months or so." Not many more details beyond that, unfortunately, but Lewis did divulge a bit of UK news, saying that sales went up "1,000 percent week-over-week with an 84 per cent market share" following the release of the new, redesigned Xbox 360.
 
Kinect beta kits going out. Info Leaked!

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That email purportedly sent out by Microsoft a couple weeks back inviting its recipients into a Kinect beta program? Yeah -- it was legit. Joystiq has received corroborating evidence confirming the program, including pictures of the promised Kinect-enabled Dashboard update running on a participant's retail console. In them, you can clearly see the flatter presentation, new mini-guide and revamped Avatar editor -- complete with a re-proportioned Avatar.

Our tipsters clearly didn't read the included guidelines, pictured in the gallery bellow. Apart from the laundry list of methods via which participants aren't supposed to talk about the program, there's confirmation that Kinect hardware is indeed part of the beta, "is being packed" and will presumably be on its way to testers soon. These same sources report that the beta support site mentions Kinect Adventures, Kinect Sports and Kinect Joy Ride as titles they can expect to receive for testing purposes.

We'll have more on the program as its participants continue to refuse acknowledgment of Microsoft's terms and conditions.



Screens:

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via: Joystiq
 
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Kinect won't support voice recognition in some countries until 2011

via engadget

"If you see it, just say it," says Microsoft's Kinect, but only in the US, UK, Mexico and Japan to start -- those are the only four countries that will support Kinect voice control by the motion-sensing peripheral's November launch. So said Microsoft PR manager Lidia Pitzalis in an interview with Eurogamer Spain, adding that Germany, Italy, France and even Canada and Spain would have to wait for a Spring 2011 update for additional language support. Microsoft claims it's a matter of accents throwing off the voice recognition, as the company's already had to build separate software versions for US and UK English, but if you're an Italian who can fake a good Cockney, you're still out of luck, as Microsoft's reportedly disabling voice control entirely in said regions until it can formally support it. And game companies wonder why we try so hard to hack those DVD drives...

Update: Canada will in fact have voice support, according to Microsoft. So long as you speak English and not French.
 
There's a bundle that you get that you can't even use with the older Xbox 360 because is missing a power adapter that M$ isn't even selling in stores yet. Way to force people to upgrade to the newer model..:rolleyes:
 
my brother bought it..

so far,it look's good...you Just need a lot of room to move around if your going to play 2 player's...1 player isn't too bad.

amazingly it work's well,it's like 1:1 of both of your arm's when you move around.
 
Played some Kinect last night, wasn't too impressed, pretty noticeable lag then moving my hand and it actually detecting it.